FRC highlighted posts of the week

We are highlighting three posts this week, one about land, one about water and last is medical related.

Eeyore started this string of post titled
Carrying capacity for land (in general or in total)
I was wondering what peoples thoughts are on the carring capacity of land in general or total.

What i mean is how much land is necessarly for a long term Bad Times. I understand that is different in different parts of the country also.

I mean for growing enough food, having enough water, having enough wood to having enough stock.

Then you would have to couple that with having enough people (for security to work the land to purpose what you need) then figuring out exactly what skills are necessary and what skill would good to have.

It is really a lot to think about if you what to be realistic about it.

The more land ou need to secure (or protect) means more people, which means more land and then more people.

Just something i have been mulling about in my mind after reading some of the latest post.


230gr responded
Unless you have irrigation capability, intensively fertile soil and can practice bio-intensive gardening, you will need 1/3 to ½ acre just for garden area per adult for a years worth of fresh and canned foods with adequate calories.
For 12 adults, that means about 4 to 6 acres for growing food. More for orchards and small fruits and possibly a fish pond, as well as, pasture for your animals.

For the ongoing production of firewood you will need a large enough woodlot in the more heavily forested eastern US this means about 5 acres for a Northern winter’s heating and cooking (if you every twig, branch and log) figuring on at least a cord per acre with out cutting more than what will regrow annually.

Then there is your housing, outbuildings and just plain living space and privacy space. This will be 1 or 2 acres more.
Much more land is needed where it is dry and hot with sparse woods but more land may not necessarily need to be protected by more people. You need to cover your inner perimeter, gardens, barn, retreat and out buildings especially at night. Woods, pastures (when the animals are driven in), and grain fields are not as vital. Animals like cattle and goats will be extremely valuable and armed herdsman will need to overwatch them on pasture during the day. A lot will depend on the population density of your area and you relationship to likely “golden hoard” movement routs.

Grog responded
When it comes to sustainability, a few things come to mind, space for food production, space for storage of supplies, access to potable water, conditions for waste/garbage (Not every thing can be composted)
and can you protect it? Not just from jbts/hordes but say flooding, fire or the like.

The number of people and things like security, maintaining shelters, growing food, securing clothing (weave, tan hides, make foot wear etc).

Grog added to his earlier post addendum: figure 5 acres per person, and if raising food animals, figure again water needs, fodder sources, and again sustainability. based on a loose rule, a core of say 24 people say between ages 6 to 65, without special needs would need a minimum of 120 acres, call it 5 gallons of water per person per day every day for sanitation, hydration and personal hygiene. so daily water 120 gallons every 24 hours.

For animals, call it 10 gallons a day part water for hydration and for crop production for those animals.

call this roughly 1000 gallons a day for 100 goats or sheep. I am sticking to small food animals, not larger ones like bison or cattle. Granted these may be higher than actual usage. The water rates for animals includes water for growing food, for humans, I set the usage for not just hydration, but food prep, washing of clothing and materials, not just survival intake minimums. As to waste, well even properly built privys are of a limited lifespan and need another one some where, same with septic systems. Possibly using methane generators could off set this, but this will depend on how you are set up. I feel the sanitation issue is often over looked....


Groovy Mike responded
My great grandfather said (+/- 75 years ago) that "with 10 good acres" he could feed his family of 5 year round without ever leaving home. With a good water source and at least 50% tillable ground I think he was right on target.


ez responded
Looking at my area.

there isn't really a need for firewood.so that cuts down the amount of land needed.

the big things here are gardening and the amount of land you can secure.

gardening you would need 4times more land so that rotating from year to year is possible. with our poor soil conditions it takes xtreme composting to ensure the soil will be good for the next year.

I'm saying for 2 families 3 acres just for gardening 11/2 to plant am year the use the other 11/2 to plant the next year.

For fruit trees 2 acres. plums/ citrus/ mango's/ avocados/ peaches and nuts . I say 2 acres because I see small front yards growing these fruits healthy all around me.


For living I believe 1 acre for 2 homes is good. you can still have limited privacy and be close enough to provide security to each other. most homes today are closer then that and still have room for a garage and small buildings

Live stock is a big one here since we have mostly sands raising live stock on a large scale would not be practical.

with that said we are already over run with wild hogs and gators. both could supply with a years worth of meat.

A pond Id say the bigger the better I could easily go with a 1 acre pond this would supply watter for the crops home to the gators / fish/ and birds (duck, geese, ) .

I based this on 2 families roughly 11 people. So I'm up to 7 acres I believe could work as long as careful attention was taken to plan out every year
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Our second post is offered from Jerry D. Young called
Some average water usage numbers
Okay. Got my Arkansas State Board of Health Bureau of Sanitary Engineering Individual Water Supply Systems handbook dated 1961 out. Don't think many things have changed except house hold use may be up. Though with water saving toilets, showers, Energy Star appliances and such, it might be about the same. Take it as you see it. Use or reject what you don't feel is correct.

Domestic use per person average household: 50 gallons
Per horse, mule, or steer 12 gallons/day
Per dairy cow drinking only 15 gallons/day
Per dairy cow drinking & dairy servicing 35 gallons/day
Per hog 4 gallons/day
Per sheep 2 gallons/day
Per 100 chickens 4gallons/day
Per 100 turkeys 7 gallons/day

Per 5/8" hose 200 gallons /day
Per 3/4" hose w/1/4" nozzle 300gallons/day
Per 1 1/2" fire hose w/1/2" nozzle 2,400 gallons/day

For small residences a minimm of 5 gallon/minute pump with a 42 gallon pressure tank

An average residence should have a 10 gallon/minuite pump and a 100 gallon pressure tank.

From the Ruth-Berry pump engineering manual

Pasture 1 1/2" to 2" per irrigation every 10 to 15 days
Alfalfa 3" to 6" per irrigation every 21 to 45 days
Vegetables 1" to 3" per irrigation every 7 to 21 days
Berries 2" to 3" per irrigation every 14 to 21 days
Orchards 3" to 6" per irrigation every 21 to 45 days
Clover 2" to 4" per irrigation every 14 to 30 days
Root crops 1" to 3" per irrigation every 7to 14 days


1 acre inch of water = 27,100 gallons of water

eeyore responded
I can say a donkey uses less then 5 gallons a day. That is one on pasture and hay no real work being done.
From an experiment a friend and my family did back around 2000 (a bugin type situation), we found it took (realistically) over two gallons per person each day, when you figured cleaning, for food and hygiene.
Can it be less i'm sure, but if you are working even part of the day, you are going to at least want to take some type of bath at the end of the day.


230gr responded
Good information! thanks Jerry.
Domestic use per person average household: 50 gallons
can be cut back a lot with planning & reuse, IMO.

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The third post is from 230gr called
Reducing Insulin Requirements & Blood Sugar levels

This is information that I have been collecting for personal use and I no longer have the referances and sources. I have tried a good bit of it and find it is worth doing. 230gr

Reducing Insulin Requirements & Blood Sugar levelsFor Type 2 Diabetics
1. Dr. Jonathan Wright suggests diabetics have a daily intake of the following nutrients chromium 1000 to 2000 mg., Niacin 1.5 to 2.5 mg , Niacinamide 50 to 100 mg ,Biotin 8 to 16 mg., Alpha-lipoic- acid 300 mg., Co-Enzyme Q 10-60 mg. Vitamin K 5 to 10 mg., Vitamin D -2000 I.U. daily, Vitamin E (as mixed tocopherols) 400 IU, Vitamin C 2000-3000 mg., Magnesium 300-400 mg., Vanadium 1-2 mg., Zinc 30 mg. Copper 2 mg., Manganese 5-10 mg.,
a. Most supplements will lack a few of these ingredients which can be added from another source.
b. Use only butter, olive oil, and coconut oil for cooking.
2. A current study among Finnish men and women between the ages of 35, with no history type 2 diabetes, where followed for about 12 years. Those who drank three to four cups of coffee per day had a 27 to 29 percent reduced risk of diabetes. Those who drank at least 10 cups a day had a 55 to 79 percent reduced risk.* Adding one additional cup of coffee per day was associated with a .16-units higher insulin sensitivity.
a. Note: Except men who drank pot-boiled coffee, who faced three times the risk of diabetes compared to men who drank filtered coffee. Which may have to do with the length of time the coffee was exposed to high temperatures.
3. Tea consumption was also related to improved insulin sensitivity.
4. 1/2 tsp of cinnamon per day (on toast, in coffee, etc) will lower insulin requirements and also lowers cholesterol.
5. Vinegar can flatten out glucose spikes in your blood as it slows down the digestion of carbohydrates. Just using vinegar on a salad or a teaspoon in a small glass of water ahead of a moderate carbohydrate meal seems to flatten the blood sugar out and give the pancreas a chance to catch up.
6. James Duke in The Green Pharmacy suggests drinking lots of
a. black tea as it significantly reduces blood sugar levels
b. Insulinade (even better!) To a pot of black tea add a pinch each of bay leaf, cinnamon, cloves, and tumeric, and steep for 10 minutes.

For Type 1 Diabetics
1. There does not seem to be a feasible way make or a substitute for insulin.
2. Insulin can be stored in a refrigerator (35 to 46 degrees F), unopened, and maintain potency until the expiration date on the package.
3. It may be used beyond the expiration date for an additional year or until it becomes cloudy but no MD would recommend that. In a situation where it is use it or die without it, you will have little choice.
4. Insulin products may be left un-refrigerated (between 59 and 86 degrees F) for up to 28 days and still maintain potency.
5. Under emergency conditions, when the storage temperatures might exceed even 86 degrees F, insulin exposed to these temperatures may still need to be used but it may lose potency.
6. A 6 pack cooler-sized refrigerators that run off 12V DC that run off solar cells or car battery recharged by solar cells.
7. A solar-powered refrigerator with its own collector, the SunDanzer BFR105 Battery-Free (PV Direct) model, at $1199, has ultra low energy consumption, is 3.7 cf. (41W x 31 D x 39H inches) and 200 lbs

Herbs for Diabetes
Diabetes has been treated with plant medicines and recent scientific investigation has confirmed the efficacy of many of these preparations, some of which are remarkably effective. Only those herbs that appear most effective, are relatively non-toxic and have substantial documentation of efficacy are covered here.
1. Pterocarpus marsupium (Kino tree) gum-resin much used in Indian medicine as a treatment for diabetes. The crude alcohol extract have actually been shown to regenerate functional pancreatic beta cells. No other drug or natural agent has been shown to generate this activity.
2. Bitter Melon (Momordica charantia) or balsam pear, is a tropical vegetable widely used as a remedy for diabetes. The blood sugar lowering action of the fresh juice of the unripe fruit has been clearly established in clinical studies.
a. Charantin, extracted by alcohol, is a hypoglycaemic agent composed of mixed steroids that is more potent than the drug tolbutamide which is often used in the treatment of diabetes.
b. Momordica also contains an insulin-like polypeptide, polypeptide-P, which lowers blood sugar levels when injected subcutaneously into type 1 diabetic patients. The oral administration of 50-60 ml of the juice has shown good results in clinical trials.
3. Gymnema Sylvestre (Gurmar) assists the pancreas in the production of insulin in Type 2 diabetes. Gymnema also improves the ability of insulin to lower blood sugar in both Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes. It decreases cravings for sweet. This herb can be an excellent substitute for oral blood sugar-lowering drugs in Type 2 diabetes. Some people take 500 mg per day of gymnema extract.
4. Onion and Garlic ( Allium cepa and Allium sativum) have significant blood sugar lowering action. Clinical evidence suggests that APDS components lower glucose levels by competing with insulin for insulin-inactivating sites in the liver which results in an increase of free insulin.
a. APDS administered in doses of 125 mg/ kg to fasting humans was found to cause a marked fall in blood glucose levels and an increase in serum insulin.
b. Allicin doses of 100 mg/kg produced a similar effect.
c. Onion extract was found to reduce blood sugar levels even with 1 to 7 oz (raw and boiled onion) by the metabolism of glucose and/or increases the release of insulin, and/or prevent insulin's destruction.
d. Additional benefit of the use of garlic and onions are to lower lipid levels, inhibit platelet aggregation and are antihypertensive. So, liberal use of onion and garlic are recommended for diabetic patients.
5. Fenugreek the antidiabetic properties of seeds that contains the alkaloid trogonelline, nicotinic acid and coumarin.
6. Blueberry leaves-A decoction of the leaves of the blueberry has a long history of use in the treatment of diabetes. The compound myrtillin (an anthocyanoside), the most active ingredient, when injected is somewhat weaker than insulin, but is less toxic, even at 50 times the 1 g per day therapeutic dose. A single dose can produce beneficial effects lasting several weeks and also increase capillary integrity and improve the tone of the vascular system. In Europe, it is used as an anti-haemorrhagic agent in the treatment of eye diseases including diabetic retinopathy.
7. Asian Ginseng has been shown to enhance the release of insulin from the pancreas and to increase the number of insulin receptors. 200 mg of ginseng extract per day improved blood sugar control as well as energy levels in Type 2 diabetes.
8. Bilberry may lower the risk of some diabetic complications, such as diabetic cataracts and retinopathy.
9. Ginkgo Biloba extract may prove useful for prevention and treatment of early-stage diabetic neuropathy.
10. Cinnamon - Triples insulin's efficiency
11. Barberry - One of the mildest and best liver tonics known. Dosage: tincture, 10-30 drops; standard decoction or 3-9 g.
12. Herbal Combinations For all pancreatic problems:
1 part uva ursi
1 part goldenseal
1 part elecampane
2 parts dandelion root
2 parts cedar berries
1 part fennel part ginger
a. Mix the powdered herbs and put them in #00 capsules.
b. Take them after every meal

Herbal Treatment of Non-Insulin Dependent Diabetes
In a comprehensive management program of non-insulin dependent diabetes, where the Islets of Langerhans are working, plant hypoglycemics documented.
1. Examples from Europe:
a. Bilberry, Garlic, Goat's Rue, Mulberry Leaves, Olive Leaves
b. Goat's Rue is a gentle endocrine stimulation of pituitary or hypothalamus and in some people they can be dramatically effective in lowering blood sugar.
2. Plants that been shown to have experimental hypoglycemic effects to a greater or lesser degree but where the mechanisms are not clear:
a. Black Cohosh, Burdock, Cashew, Cayenne, Celery, Dandelion, Fenugreek Ginseng, Golden Seal, Gravel Root, Oats, Peyote, Pill bearing Spurge, and Spinach.
3. Cardio-vascular system (Heart and vascular) tonics, appropriate for long-term use, especially are Bilberry, Hawthorn berry and Ginkgo.

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